INTERVIEW WITH RA NA PRESIDENT ARTUR BAGHDASARYAN

- Mr. Baghdasaryan, the evaluation of the Venice Commission to the draft of the constitutional amendments adopted in the first reading was a surprise for your partners, and they evaluated it as a political order. Was such evaluation expected and, does that evaluation really contain political subtext?

- The two written evaluations of the Venice Commission were sound with document that we’ve put into circulation because the Venice Commission presented us a distinct package of recommendations, which we have responded. The document that we’ve put into circulation, and the document, that was adopted, differs very much from each other. That’s why the Venice Commission also mentioned the numerous positive fulfilled changes in its just conclusion. Naturally, the Commission also expressed its concern on three main problems: Mayor of Yerevan, independence of the judicial power and separation of the authorities. It’s my conviction that if the city of Yerevan is a community, then it should have all functions characteristic to a community, i.e. the mayor shall be elected. If we speak about real democracy, then we shall accept that the judicial power can’t depend on the executive power. We shall make amendments in the Basis Law, which will give opportunity to keep the judicial power completely out of the influence of the executive power. What refers to the third disputable issue, the separation of the authorities, I’ll note that the country itself chooses its model of governing – presidential, semi-presidential, parliamentary or other models. If we have chosen semi-presidential model of governing, then we shall compose characteristic features to that model in the Constitution, and not take a clause from the presidential model, a clause from semi-presidential, a clause from parliamentary one and go on like that…As there are, really, different approaches, I suggested that the Venice Commission should present the models characteristic to semi-presidential governing system, in which framework we’ll do our choice. It’s obvious that if we speak from the necessity of the real democracy, then we shall begin from the Basic Law of the country because if the distinct separation of the authorities is guaranteed by Constitution, the presence of the efficient system of counter-balances and suppressions, the real de-concentration of the power and the independence of the judicial power, the presence of the efficient system of the human rights protection, then we can’t speak about the real democratic amendments. The forces that today in Armenia they speak about the democratic development, shall be interested in having real amendments and not to have super-powers accumulated in any wing of the power on the others’ account, i.e. to be a separated distinct system of rights and obligations characteristic to the mentioned form of governing.

- The international experts’ reservations to the draft Constitution is well known. Are you sure that the RA authorities will so much political will to accept them. And if that will is not displayed, what sanctions are possible towards Armenia?

- My last official visit to European countries became obvious that when Armenia wasn’t CE member, other attitude was towards us, we became a CE member, that attitude was changed. Today, when we became a member of “Wider Europe: New Neighbourhood” programme, it means that the requirements especially, from the viewpoint of deepening the democratic amendments, will be strengthened. I think we’ll have to do our best to completely accept the recommendations of the Venice Commission. Of course, there may be problems, where we’ll have our approaches, and the thing refers to the strategic problems of principle. I don’t lose optimism myself: we shall do everything to continue the constitutional real amendments. We’ve announced that the “OYe” (Rule of Law) as a political force, being inside the power, is a political organization requiring and making amendments, we’ll do our best to get those amendments be done till the end. Today I don’t want to speak about sanctions. The sanctions will be if there are no reforms. And in that respect, the consequence will be, that the country and the people will suffer, and, first of all - the international authority of the state. This is a reality, where neither the power, nor the opposition gain, because it’s known that the democratic Constitution is necessary for democratic amendments.

- Gianni Buquicchio, secretary of the Venice Commission, said that if RA authorities continue not to take into account their recommendations, then their next disappointment and next disappointed statement would follow. In your opinion, won’t the Venice Commission have a question with RA authorities after the second reading?

- I’ve met both with the heads of the Venice Commission and its representatives, and I think that the resource of the joint work is not exhausted, and I’m not for having negative statements about Armenia. Once again we’ll have reports and estimations sounded by international media, and put on the table of state and political figures, which will not bring an honour for us. I’m intended for the continuation of amendments, which is more preferable than the perspective of appearing before the broken tub.

- If the people say “No” to the coalition’s Constitution, it means distrust of the people towards the authorities. In that case, don’t you think, that the programme of the opposition – to make the referendum of the Constitution into the referendum of the authorities’ trust – will succeed?

- I don’t want to speak with “if and then.” The OYe is one of the political forces presenting the coalition, and we’re not intended that those amendments won’t take place. If we don’t have real amendments, naturally, new approaches emerge. The first item of the coalition’s memorandum proclaims – carry out constitutional amendments, “OYe” is decisive to make those amendments, naturally, they shall comply with European standards. It, certainly, means a struggle, it means clashing of interests, comparing-contradicting. And in Armenia, where, unfortunately, almost everything is personified, many realias are not observed from the viewpoint, which causes serious obstacles on the road to the democratic amendments. But I repeat that both OYe and me are ready to work with the free media, opposition, power and all those, who are zealous for the fulfillment of democratic amendments. During my last visit in the European countries and structures they were interested in the process of constitutional amendments. It means that this issue is not only in the center of Venice Commission but the whole European public.

- During the last period politicians of different classes of RF and West are sent to Armenia, whose task is to touch upon the political possible developments. Isn’t it a sign that the wave of democratic changes also reached Caucasus, so that process of democratization in Armenia will be carried out by a revolution of next colour.

I’m convinced that reforms are necessary in Armenia, and the revolutions, eventually take place based on making the same reforms. The end of any war, revolution, emergency situation of are the political processes. We shall go not through revolutions, but through real deepening of reforms. Every revolution, eventually, takes us back because revolution means shocks. I also understand the people, who speak about the revolutions in Armenia, don’t believe the opportunity and success of the reforms. Being in the power, I think that during these two years, for example, many legislative reforms have been made. A concrete example, the Electoral Code, according to which, in Armenia electors’ national register, the deputed person gains the right to advisory voice in participating at the sitting of the committee and the whole electoral process, including the accounting-summing up, etc. Members of Electoral Committee can be appointed only the persons, who only received specialized education. And, at last, if till now RA President was appointing one third of CEC, then now he is going to appoint only one member from the nine. These are serious reforms. We’ll remember the estimation of the international structures: the version put into circulation of the Electoral Code was criticized, and the amended law was encouraged. So, I don’t lose optimism regarding also the Constitution. Eventually, hope + confidence=result.

And the visits of the politicians of RF and other states to Armenia have two directions. First, they are ordinary working visits, which have been agreed before. Second, yes, there are purposeful that have the aim to form an opinion about the country and present situation. It’s obvious that Armenia and South Caucasus are of great interest for super powers, that shall make us understand once again, especially those who don’t understand it consistently, that we don’t have alternative, which is respected in the region and international community. It means that we’ll have to make more directed our foreign policy, more active, more initiative in order to be able to truly present the international community the national-state interests of our country, be consistent for the interests. Armenia shall have democratic and free state - this is a perspective having no alternative.

- Though you always say that you’re against extraordinary processes, but irrespective of your subjective estimation, do you exclude the possibility of extraordinary elections in the country?

- Armenia is not the country where it is possible to exclude something, with objective as well as subjective considerations. Already this year the elections of local self-government bodies will be held, the year 2006 is a pre-election year for the National Assembly. It will be much more reasonable and wise to get well prepared for the elections carrying on the reforms and making use of the results of the reforms. We’ll have to create such situation and atmosphere in the country, so to exclude the use of ballot-riggings. Power having free election and high legitimacy inside the country and outside it – this is my tomorrow’s vision. That’s why in future my main principles will freedom, solidarity and progress, as the real hope of the progress is more important than the sad memory of the past.

- Mr. Baghdasaryan, during the debates of the “Code on Administrative Offences” after your speech and voting of the faction punitive measures have started to be taken towards your friends. Will the taking of the cars to the penalty area make you to overlook the approach of principle of OYe towards the proposed amendments to that law?

- Sometimes when I speak about the existing drawbacks, the phenomena of bribery or corruption, I immediately move the conversation to the sphere of the personal relations. What has been done is not right, and everybody says that. When three months ago they were trying to criminalize the punishments for the economic activity, suggesting 5 years of sentence for the breach of USD 1000, I stopped that: they attacked at me. When I spoke about the existing defective phenomena in the system of state car inspection, they started…you know what. I would like to announce that I don’t have personal affairs neither with Hayk Harutyunyan, nor Davit Harutyunyan and the others. We speak about the necessity of system reforms, the reforms that are going inevitably to take place. To personify all this, to take revenge with some steps, is untimely. Moreover, that nobody is at his post forever. To say that it is directed against all employees of the system, and incite them against us, is also untimely because thousands of conscientious people work in the system, whose work I highly appreciate.

Unfortunately, more often matters and problems in Armenia are personified. We don’t have personal problems: this is a matter of principle and ideology. And the people, who speak from such positions, don’t speak against me, but the reforms, tomorrow’s ideas because in the civilized world such system of state car inspection doesn’t exist long ago. And sooner or later we’ll do those reforms: and as soon we do that better will be – that’s one thing. Second, this is eventually a struggle for a change. “OYe” (Rule of Law) now is developing an alternative draft law connected with these reforms. We think that, yes, in Armenia a law on road traffic shall be adopted, and the OYe faction is for voting this law. We find that we shall make reforms, create a modern system of state car inspection by force of law, where the policeman, state inspector are protected by law, be protected from men, who don’t care for the law, first of all, second – we shall technically upgrade the system of state car inspection, and OYe made concrete and distinct proposals, third – we’ll have to be consistent to prevent the defective phenomena, when at every step the state car inspector, stopping the car timely and untimely, asks the citizen to pay. According to this draft law, it says, for example, about fining 10.000 drams on spot: if from Armavir the farmer, let’s say, loads his 06 car with fruit and wakes up at 4a.m. to bring it to the market and sell it, the whole sum of the sale won’t be 10.000 drams. The comments are irrelevant…If there are cars breaking the law with signals, sirens, dark glasses, please, fine, but not the ordinary driver, who earns his daily bread. Eventually, the majority of about 300.000 drivers are conscientious people. The alternative draft law is put into circulation, and if the viewpoints coincide, naturally we’ll be for, if the same draft is brought, the position of the faction will be unchangeable. I consider impermissible the solution of the problems at the level of personal revenge. In your publications you write that NA Speaker is the second person, I ask a question: who is the real second person? The regional department head of the police with real powers has more rights than NA Speaker, and I don’t speak about MPs. And this is one more argument why shall be made real constitutional reforms.

- Aram Sargsyan, Chairman of “Hanrapetutiun” party political council sees only you in the whole power pyramid as a democratic force and he was asked if it is possible that the opposition can consolidated around you, he answered that it depends on you. Do you consider the development of such events possible?

- I’ve already answered that question. What refers to Aram Sargsyan’s position, I’m impressed by his that estimation. I think that every honest man sees who is led by which principles, who needs what, who are the heralds and bearers of real democratic processes. In this context, the time for telling the black from white will come. I’m not a person who sees the world in black and white: I don’t consider that the power is always right, and the opposition is wrong. In both sides there are those presenting angels, who don’t have any connection with God. The country is one, the country is for everybody, obviously, everybody wants to do all the best for our country, simply based on our ideas and principles and possibilities, and we use different mechanisms. I respect Aram Sargsyan’s fidelity to principles and honesty.

NAIRA ZOHRABYAN

INTERVIEW WITH RA NA PRESIDENT ARTUR BAGHDASARYAN

- Mr. Baghdasaryan, the evaluation of the Venice Commission to the draft of the constitutional amendments adopted in the first reading was a surprise for your partners, and they evaluated it as a political order. Was such evaluation expected and, does that evaluation really contain political subtext?

- The two written evaluations of the Venice Commission were sound with document that we’ve put into circulation because the Venice Commission presented us a distinct package of recommendations, which we have responded. The document that we’ve put into circulation, and the document, that was adopted, differs very much from each other. That’s why the Venice Commission also mentioned the numerous positive fulfilled changes in its just conclusion. Naturally, the Commission also expressed its concern on three main problems: Mayor of Yerevan, independence of the judicial power and separation of the authorities. It’s my conviction that if the city of Yerevan is a community, then it should have all functions characteristic to a community, i.e. the mayor shall be elected. If we speak about real democracy, then we shall accept that the judicial power can’t depend on the executive power. We shall make amendments in the Basis Law, which will give opportunity to keep the judicial power completely out of the influence of the executive power. What refers to the third disputable issue, the separation of the authorities, I’ll note that the country itself chooses its model of governing – presidential, semi-presidential, parliamentary or other models. If we have chosen semi-presidential model of governing, then we shall compose characteristic features to that model in the Constitution, and not take a clause from the presidential model, a clause from semi-presidential, a clause from parliamentary one and go on like that…As there are, really, different approaches, I suggested that the Venice Commission should present the models characteristic to semi-presidential governing system, in which framework we’ll do our choice. It’s obvious that if we speak from the necessity of the real democracy, then we shall begin from the Basic Law of the country because if the distinct separation of the authorities is guaranteed by Constitution, the presence of the efficient system of counter-balances and suppressions, the real de-concentration of the power and the independence of the judicial power, the presence of the efficient system of the human rights protection, then we can’t speak about the real democratic amendments. The forces that today in Armenia they speak about the democratic development, shall be interested in having real amendments and not to have super-powers accumulated in any wing of the power on the others’ account, i.e. to be a separated distinct system of rights and obligations characteristic to the mentioned form of governing.

- The international experts’ reservations to the draft Constitution is well known. Are you sure that the RA authorities will so much political will to accept them. And if that will is not displayed, what sanctions are possible towards Armenia?

- My last official visit to European countries became obvious that when Armenia wasn’t CE member, other attitude was towards us, we became a CE member, that attitude was changed. Today, when we became a member of “Wider Europe: New Neighbourhood” programme, it means that the requirements especially, from the viewpoint of deepening the democratic amendments, will be strengthened. I think we’ll have to do our best to completely accept the recommendations of the Venice Commission. Of course, there may be problems, where we’ll have our approaches, and the thing refers to the strategic problems of principle. I don’t lose optimism myself: we shall do everything to continue the constitutional real amendments. We’ve announced that the “OYe” (Rule of Law) as a political force, being inside the power, is a political organization requiring and making amendments, we’ll do our best to get those amendments be done till the end. Today I don’t want to speak about sanctions. The sanctions will be if there are no reforms. And in that respect, the consequence will be, that the country and the people will suffer, and, first of all - the international authority of the state. This is a reality, where neither the power, nor the opposition gain, because it’s known that the democratic Constitution is necessary for democratic amendments.

- Gianni Buquicchio, secretary of the Venice Commission, said that if RA authorities continue not to take into account their recommendations, then their next disappointment and next disappointed statement would follow. In your opinion, won’t the Venice Commission have a question with RA authorities after the second reading?

- I’ve met both with the heads of the Venice Commission and its representatives, and I think that the resource of the joint work is not exhausted, and I’m not for having negative statements about Armenia. Once again we’ll have reports and estimations sounded by international media, and put on the table of state and political figures, which will not bring an honour for us. I’m intended for the continuation of amendments, which is more preferable than the perspective of appearing before the broken tub.

- If the people say “No” to the coalition’s Constitution, it means distrust of the people towards the authorities. In that case, don’t you think, that the programme of the opposition – to make the referendum of the Constitution into the referendum of the authorities’ trust – will succeed?

- I don’t want to speak with “if and then.” The OYe is one of the political forces presenting the coalition, and we’re not intended that those amendments won’t take place. If we don’t have real amendments, naturally, new approaches emerge. The first item of the coalition’s memorandum proclaims – carry out constitutional amendments, “OYe” is decisive to make those amendments, naturally, they shall comply with European standards. It, certainly, means a struggle, it means clashing of interests, comparing-contradicting. And in Armenia, where, unfortunately, almost everything is personified, many realias are not observed from the viewpoint, which causes serious obstacles on the road to the democratic amendments. But I repeat that both OYe and me are ready to work with the free media, opposition, power and all those, who are zealous for the fulfillment of democratic amendments. During my last visit in the European countries and structures they were interested in the process of constitutional amendments. It means that this issue is not only in the center of Venice Commission but the whole European public.

- During the last period politicians of different classes of RF and West are sent to Armenia, whose task is to touch upon the political possible developments. Isn’t it a sign that the wave of democratic changes also reached Caucasus, so that process of democratization in Armenia will be carried out by a revolution of next colour.

I’m convinced that reforms are necessary in Armenia, and the revolutions, eventually take place based on making the same reforms. The end of any war, revolution, emergency situation of are the political processes. We shall go not through revolutions, but through real deepening of reforms. Every revolution, eventually, takes us back because revolution means shocks. I also understand the people, who speak about the revolutions in Armenia, don’t believe the opportunity and success of the reforms. Being in the power, I think that during these two years, for example, many legislative reforms have been made. A concrete example, the Electoral Code, according to which, in Armenia electors’ national register, the deputed person gains the right to advisory voice in participating at the sitting of the committee and the whole electoral process, including the accounting-summing up, etc. Members of Electoral Committee can be appointed only the persons, who only received specialized education. And, at last, if till now RA President was appointing one third of CEC, then now he is going to appoint only one member from the nine. These are serious reforms. We’ll remember the estimation of the international structures: the version put into circulation of the Electoral Code was criticized, and the amended law was encouraged. So, I don’t lose optimism regarding also the Constitution. Eventually, hope + confidence=result.

And the visits of the politicians of RF and other states to Armenia have two directions. First, they are ordinary working visits, which have been agreed before. Second, yes, there are purposeful that have the aim to form an opinion about the country and present situation. It’s obvious that Armenia and South Caucasus are of great interest for super powers, that shall make us understand once again, especially those who don’t understand it consistently, that we don’t have alternative, which is respected in the region and international community. It means that we’ll have to make more directed our foreign policy, more active, more initiative in order to be able to truly present the international community the national-state interests of our country, be consistent for the interests. Armenia shall have democratic and free state - this is a perspective having no alternative.

- Though you always say that you’re against extraordinary processes, but irrespective of your subjective estimation, do you exclude the possibility of extraordinary elections in the country?

- Armenia is not the country where it is possible to exclude something, with objective as well as subjective considerations. Already this year the elections of local self-government bodies will be held, the year 2006 is a pre-election year for the National Assembly. It will be much more reasonable and wise to get well prepared for the elections carrying on the reforms and making use of the results of the reforms. We’ll have to create such situation and atmosphere in the country, so to exclude the use of ballot-riggings. Power having free election and high legitimacy inside the country and outside it – this is my tomorrow’s vision. That’s why in future my main principles will freedom, solidarity and progress, as the real hope of the progress is more important than the sad memory of the past.

- Mr. Baghdasaryan, during the debates of the “Code on Administrative Offences” after your speech and voting of the faction punitive measures have started to be taken towards your friends. Will the taking of the cars to the penalty area make you to overlook the approach of principle of OYe towards the proposed amendments to that law?

- Sometimes when I speak about the existing drawbacks, the phenomena of bribery or corruption, I immediately move the conversation to the sphere of the personal relations. What has been done is not right, and everybody says that. When three months ago they were trying to criminalize the punishments for the economic activity, suggesting 5 years of sentence for the breach of USD 1000, I stopped that: they attacked at me. When I spoke about the existing defective phenomena in the system of state car inspection, they started…you know what. I would like to announce that I don’t have personal affairs neither with Hayk Harutyunyan, nor Davit Harutyunyan and the others. We speak about the necessity of system reforms, the reforms that are going inevitably to take place. To personify all this, to take revenge with some steps, is untimely. Moreover, that nobody is at his post forever. To say that it is directed against all employees of the system, and incite them against us, is also untimely because thousands of conscientious people work in the system, whose work I highly appreciate.

Unfortunately, more often matters and problems in Armenia are personified. We don’t have personal problems: this is a matter of principle and ideology. And the people, who speak from such positions, don’t speak against me, but the reforms, tomorrow’s ideas because in the civilized world such system of state car inspection doesn’t exist long ago. And sooner or later we’ll do those reforms: and as soon we do that better will be – that’s one thing. Second, this is eventually a struggle for a change. “OYe” (Rule of Law) now is developing an alternative draft law connected with these reforms. We think that, yes, in Armenia a law on road traffic shall be adopted, and the OYe faction is for voting this law. We find that we shall make reforms, create a modern system of state car inspection by force of law, where the policeman, state inspector are protected by law, be protected from men, who don’t care for the law, first of all, second – we shall technically upgrade the system of state car inspection, and OYe made concrete and distinct proposals, third – we’ll have to be consistent to prevent the defective phenomena, when at every step the state car inspector, stopping the car timely and untimely, asks the citizen to pay. According to this draft law, it says, for example, about fining 10.000 drams on spot: if from Armavir the farmer, let’s say, loads his 06 car with fruit and wakes up at 4a.m. to bring it to the market and sell it, the whole sum of the sale won’t be 10.000 drams. The comments are irrelevant…If there are cars breaking the law with signals, sirens, dark glasses, please, fine, but not the ordinary driver, who earns his daily bread. Eventually, the majority of about 300.000 drivers are conscientious people. The alternative draft law is put into circulation, and if the viewpoints coincide, naturally we’ll be for, if the same draft is brought, the position of the faction will be unchangeable. I consider impermissible the solution of the problems at the level of personal revenge. In your publications you write that NA Speaker is the second person, I ask a question: who is the real second person? The regional department head of the police with real powers has more rights than NA Speaker, and I don’t speak about MPs. And this is one more argument why shall be made real constitutional reforms.

- Aram Sargsyan, Chairman of “Hanrapetutiun” party political council sees only you in the whole power pyramid as a democratic force and he was asked if it is possible that the opposition can consolidated around you, he answered that it depends on you. Do you consider the development of such events possible?

- I’ve already answered that question. What refers to Aram Sargsyan’s position, I’m impressed by his that estimation. I think that every honest man sees who is led by which principles, who needs what, who are the heralds and bearers of real democratic processes. In this context, the time for telling the black from white will come. I’m not a person who sees the world in black and white: I don’t consider that the power is always right, and the opposition is wrong. In both sides there are those presenting angels, who don’t have any connection with God. The country is one, the country is for everybody, obviously, everybody wants to do all the best for our country, simply based on our ideas and principles and possibilities, and we use different mechanisms. I respect Aram Sargsyan’s fidelity to principles and honesty.

NAIRA ZOHRABYAN